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War or Peace

Thanks for your excellent response, @OctoPinky.

Our first incursion into Iraq, by Bush the Elder, was much easier to justify than our second. In the first, Kuwait was being invaded by Iraq, and we came to its aid.

But I suspect you're talking about the second incursion. And justifying it would require somebody far more persuasive than I could hope to be.

I can observe that when the statute of Saddam fell in Baghdad, that falling was cheered at the time by many local citizens, at least in so far as I can remember the video footage of the occurrence.

I can also observe that 911 had made America fearful and wary in a way that it had not been since 1941. And that, coupled with Iraq's earlier actions toward Kuwait, and some disputes (not to be forgotten) over U.N. inspection of certain strategic sites, had made us ever-more-fearful, and genuinely so, of the possibility that Iraq would develop and promulgate weapons of mass destruction.

However, so far as I know no such weapons were ever found, despite it being reported to us, prior to entry, that they were present. And I am not arguing that Iraq played any role in bringing about 911. So far as I know, it did not. But the mood of the country after 911increased its willingness to act under circumstances that might not inspire similar action today. This is about all I can say with any confidence about that second incursion.

There are some who can argue with far more expertise than I can, both in favor of, and against, that particular conflict. And those who had their boots on that ground are infinitely better suited than I am to talk about what was helped or gained, and what was harmed or lost.
@Noflaps said in #41:
> There are some who can argue with far more expertise than I can, both in favor of, and against, that particular conflict.

Thanks for your kind words.

I can't argue in any sense, or justify or praise these actions. Just, after many years of witnessing geopolitical games, there are almost always sensible reason for everything (usually not the official ones: 2nd. Iraq invasion could have been triggered by Saddam switching oil business from USD to EUR, at least in part: www.rferl.org/a/1095057.html ) .

Not saying these have to be approved or shared by me or others, but at least some understanding doesn't hurt. In this sense, finding similarities doesn't amount to "X did the same than Y", it is more like trying to grasp the patterns, that's why some details otherwise important (like 4,000 soldiers on the ground or 200,000) can be less relevant to me. For instance, I believe US occupation of Japan and Germany after WW2 was better than Iraq, but I don't know if there were more or less soldiers.
@Noflaps said in #37:
> Yes, @Cezrun64 , there are indeed many Ukrainian refugees.
>
> However, as even brief online research will readily reveal from an apparently unbiased source:
>
> "90% of Ukrainian refugees are women and children, while most Ukrainian men between the ages of 18 and 60 are banned from leaving the country."
>
> So it's true, many women and children have had to flee Ukraine. The men have stayed behind to fight, except for men whose age would fairly excuse them from needing to do so.
>
> So why should women and children be forced to flee their homes? What noble cause makes this necessary?

in 90 % of w+ch. can believe only AI bot operating on selected 'trusted sources' real Poles see in their streets differently , (same with 'syrian w+ch. = in fact black african young males in West Europe. )
Kiev closed border for draf age men only recently -but way via Gruzja f.i was for long available.

I had a 6-7 hour discussion with 6 young(males) Ukrainians -back in April 2018 or9 - from all parts of U. - 3 after Universities, one historian -just as I am , they described mindset in U. as 'the last one(to leave U.) turns off the light '.....
When asked how many U. are in Poland they said 3mln , with a tone of rather downplaying the number , since 2018/9 we see a few times more U. in PL cities... They back then where convinced that Poland will send troops to fight against Russia , I wonder by whom.... if in 2023 it was still laughable conspiracy theory in Poland .....
and all of you seem to think that U. draft age is 18 y --- WRONG ---- it is 27 !!!!

www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/26/ukraine-proposes-lowering-age-for-military-conscription-from-27-to-25
www.nytimes.com/2024/02/11/world/europe/ukraine-soldier-draft.html

such a terrible war-2years - and only 27y - let Poles 18y up go to war in U. -- while 18-27 U. will enjoy life abroad....

newest : 12 hours ago — A proposal to lower the draft age to 25 is tied up in Ukraine's Parliament and may remain so until Mr. Zelensky signals his backing. www.wsj.com/articles/the-dire-cost-of-peace-in-ukraine-trump-war-russia-military-aid-c186b23c
So, there is no need to hurry... maybe USA forces Poles to send troops...
The draft age shows that Ukraine don't suffer from any shortage of manpower. And some trolls on the Internet say they do...

Well, arguing both sides of an issue ensures that you are right...

"maybe USA forces Poles to send troops."

I wonder, wouldn't Poland like it? Beating the crap out of Russians.
The notion that somebody would actually fear that the USA could or would somehow unilaterally "force" Poles to send Polish men to fight in Ukraine if they didn't want to is just staggering. America doesn't control Poland. It is not some puppet.

Poland is a fiercely independent nation, and the USA is not some monstrous, all-powerful tyrant. Did I misunderstand an earlier post?

And what I quoted did not come from some disinformation bot. Obviously. There is nothing unbelievable about women and children fleeing an invader. History has a lot of precedents, sadly.

And the undeniable fact that Ukraine has held on for SO LONG against a MUCH larger country suggests that PLENTY of Ukrainian men have been fighting, does it not? How else to explain it? How long has this war been going on now, two years? Far longer than many thought it could. It has been a nightmare for both sides, I believe.

And Ukrainian men have been fighting that whole time, no? Could just a few men keep Russia at bay for two years?
War was long quite restricted-comparing with scale of operations in WWI or WWII in this region,
why Russia didnt destroy suplies lines in West Ukraine close to polish border ?-technically easily possible.(railroads and autobahns).....(USA was carpet bombing neutral states Laos and Cambodia to destroy supply routes for Vietnam....)
- because Russia still wanted peace solution = not too much damage =
this was nr one accusation from russian nationalists -f.i. Girkin/Strielkow , maybe Navalny -yes , he was no Western-style democrat but hard core nationalist - Mrs Zelensky didnt fly to USA to attend big propaganda show because she thought she will have to stand near Mrs Navalna who did the same for the same reason!!!!!.
russian nationalists even deducted many interesting theories why 'war' looks so strange...f.i. Israel 2.0 / Heavenly Jerusalem conspiracy....
------------
' And Ukrainian men have been fighting that whole time, no? Could just a few men keep Russia at bay for two years? '

Mostly , but not only Ukrainian men...Foreign / International Legions ,volunteers, mercenaries, NATO instructors, and also just in ranks of U.forces -just change of military clothes...

'Foreigners willing to help Ukrainians in its fight against invaders, can join the International Legion.
From March 1st(2022)on, people willing to join the Legion, will be exempted from any visa procedures with Ukraine.'

According to the Regulation on military service in Armed forces for foreigners and stateless persons from June 10, 2016, No248, foreigners have the right to join Ukrainian Armed Forces on volunteer basis military service contract, including Forces of territorial defense of Armed Forces of Ukraine», — said Volodymyr Zelenskyi.
The Decree No82/2022 was signed about the temporary introduction of a visa-free regime and coming to Ukraine to fight the Russian invaders.
(The volunteers can be as young as 18 years old. ...)

antifascist-europe.org/ukraine/how-foreign-far-right-volunteers-are-arriving-to-fight-in-ukraine/
Michael Clarke, a visiting professor of war studies at King's College London, said in May 2023: "It's clear that Freedom of Russia Legion and Russian Volunteer Corps are both predominantly Russian groups — self-styled 'partisans' trying to bring the Putin government down and that they range from the soccer-thug neo-Nazis to the wannabe celebrities and even to some semi-serious political reformers. They are not 'liberals' but rather hard-line Russian nationalists — just not of the Putin variety."[30][35]
Forbes described the group as "far-right".[36]

zaborona.com/en/fight-for-the-white-race-how-the-russian-neo-nazi-denis-nikitin-promotes-his-ideas-in-ukraine-and-why-the-azov-regiment/

Zelensky asked investigative jurnalists to stop writing about corruption -now is not the right time...90 % of Ukrainians think Zelensky is personally responsible for high level of corruption in U.

www.declassifieduk.org/polish-minister-saw-uk-special-forces-operating-in-ukraine/

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